The Chris Hedges Report with Anthony Loewenstein on how Israel tests new weapons and surveillance technology on Palestinians before selling them to countries around the globe
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-chris-hedges-report-with-reporter-b17
Chris Hedges: The Palestinians are human laboratory rats to the Israeli military intelligence services and arms and technology industries. Israel's drones, surveillance technology, including spyware, facial recognition software, and biometric gathering infrastructure along with smart fences, experimental bombs,
AI controlled machine guns are all tried out on the captive population in Gaza, often with lethal results.
These weapons and technologies are then certified as, quote, battle tested and sold around the world. Israel is the 10th largest arms dealer on the planet and sells its technology and weapons to an estimated 130 nations, including military dictatorships in Asia and Latin America.
Israeli weapons sales totaled $12.5 billion last year.
Its close relationship with these military internal security, surveillance, intelligence gathering and law enforcement agencies explains the fulsome support Israel's allies give to its genocidal campaign in Gaza. When Colombian President Gustavo Petro refused to condemn the October 7th attack by Palestinian resistance groups as a terrorist attack and said, quote, terrorism is killing innocent children in Palestine, Israel immediately halted all sales of defense and security equipment to Colombia.
This global cabal dedicated to permanent war and keeping its populations monitored and controlled has hundreds of billions of dollars a year in sales.
These technologies are cementing into place a super national corporate totalitarianism, a world where populations are enslaved and ways that past totalitarian regimes could only imagine. It is not a far cry from Gaza to the camps and detention centers set up for migrants fleeing to Europe from Africa and the Middle East. It is not a far cry from the carpet bombing in Gaza to the endless wars in the Middle East and the global south. It is not a far cry from the anti-terrorism laws used to criminalize dissent in Israel to the anti-terrorism laws introduced in Europe and the United States.
Joining me to discuss this use of Palestinians as human guinea pigs for the Israeli weapons and technology industry is Anthony Lowenstein author of the Palestine Laboratory, how Israel exports the technology of occupation around the world.
So your book, which is a great read, lays out the rise of this arms industry, which originally was a state industry and then privatized. One of the things points you made at the end of the book, which was quite fascinating, is how much of the apparatus to keep the Palestinians under control is essentially now handed over
to private firms.
And I just want to quote Elliot Abrams, who I've interviewed, the role of Israel is to serve as a model, an example in military might and innovation in encouraging child birth. And I think this is one of the themes of your book that much of Israel's support and power derives from its connection to this global arms network.
Anthony Loewenstein: So let's just lay out some of the innovations that Israel is pioneer. We can begin with Pegasus because they are at the forefront and drones.
I mean, they are at the forefront of some of the most advanced technologies and weapon systems that are used to control subject populations. You know, in some ways, the genesis of the book was partly due to some of the reporting around Pegasus a few years ago. Listeners or viewers will be aware that Pegasus obviously is a spyware tool that is made by NSO group, which is an Israeli company, and it was started to be used about 15 or so years ago by a range of countries. And in fact, the country that it was first mostly used in was Mexico as various governments there were desperate to fight a failed drug war. And of course, it only made the violence worse. But what's interesting back then and also now is Mexico remains Chris to this day, the world's biggest and most obsessed if you use it. And so I think that's the biggest is obsessed whether it's the right wing government or not only left wing government, but Pegasus is now in dozens of countries. I don't even know how many I think about 70-80 or 90.
And in some ways, the reason I probably wrote the book was to say that the media was obsessed with Pegasus and Pegasus is an important investigation. It's a tool that is put on phones of activists and human rights workers in countless countries and it breaches human rights. And the problem was that it was too often framed as this rogue Israeli company doing terrible things when, as I show in the book, as you know, it's not that it's essentially an arm of the state as Lockheed Martin and race on our arms of the US government.
Now, Lockheed Martin is a private company and has a board sure and it makes profits or not. But essentially, it's an arm of the state, right? It's used by the government in various foreign policy agendas or goals. Pegasus is exactly the same.
And I started looking at that issue about saying that now probably Israel is number one or two in the world for spyware. And in fact, Pegasus and NSO Group in some way really is a smokescreen because there are so many other companies that are doing exactly the same thing. So, NSO Group goes bust tomorrow and it's in a bit of financial trouble at the moment. It's not going to make any difference because there are so many other companies doing exactly the same thing using that whole allure of being able to spy on pretty much anybody, and why to this day no country wants to regulate this. There's no country because they're all obsessed with it. That's been the fundamental problem at the moment.
Chris Hedges: Explain how Pegasus works and we should note that it was used also on Jamal Khashoggi's fiance, Jamal, who I knew, being the Saudi journalist who was dismembered in the Saudi embassy consulate in Turkey. But explain how it works.
Anthony Loewenstein: So Pegasus essentially is a silent tool. It can be installed on your iPhone or Android. It doesn't matter what phone you have. Years ago, it used to require, you know, a lot of us used to get random text messages. You click on the link. You can't forget about it. You move on. That was the way it used to work.
So country X or intelligence agency Y would have this tool, let's say, in India, in some other country. They would then send a message to this phone of an activist or human rights worker or lawyer that person will click on a link. Their phone would be infected and they wouldn't know. There's no way to know yourself without it being forensically checked. These days it doesn't even require a text message. All it requires is someone knowing your number. That's it. And it can access all your information. It can even access your phone and microphone when the phone is off. So essentially it can be used as a weapon against you.
And as I show in the book, I interview huge amounts of people in Mexico and India and elsewhere. These are people often who are either lawyers who are challenging the state in Mexico, we interviewed a woman whose husband was murdered by almost certainly narcos and his phone. And then after his death, her phone was being surveilled by the Mexican state. It's never entirely clear even to this day why in her case it was surveilled. But essentially it shows that there is this utter obsession with various intelligence services to get access to all these kinds of personal information.
It's important to note, it's finally that one thing that really was clear in researching this particular tool is that Pegasus has become and tools like this. And it was said to be in the New York Times a few years ago and I sort of questioned some of this in the book, but I think too journalist wrote the most powerful weapon in the world since the invention of the nuclear bomb. Now I would maybe question that because nuclear bombs clearly can cause carnage to put it mildly. Pegasus doesn't directly kill anybody per se. But what it does is it means the privacy is close to dead. And at the moment there is this massive proliferation of these tools and Israel of course uses this. This is the key point users Pegasus another tool as a key foreign policy agenda.
I show in the book right now it's in Yahoo over the last decade and the Mossad would go to countries where Israel had no close relations Rwanda, India, when Modi comes in and others. Saudi UAE and they hold Pegasus up as a diplomatic carrot saying we will sell you this amazing tool which you can surveil your own citizens whatever you want. But in return we would like you to save voted in a certain way the UN or buy certain weapons.
And that's how it works and I show a timeline when it's in Yahoo for example goes to Hungary to visit all barn or Modi in India. And six or 12 months later Pegasus is in use this is not accidental right this is a key part of Israeli foreign policy now.
Chris Hedges: Let's talk about the drone program. They pioneered drones, I think. I remember from the book India's maybe their largest drone customers used these drones are used against migrants fleeing towards Europe in particularly Greece. And as well as the US Mexico border.
So Israeli drones and I have some interesting declassified documents from the 80s in fact where Israel was using drones and its war in Lebanon. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1992 obviously it was before digital era but Israel was using drones and even back then this is amazing document that I have in the book from the CIA they kind of shocked and amazed. And it's incredible, that's their words, these drones are how effective they are and they wonder back in the 80s. How Israel will be a global pioneer again their view of drones fast forward to the last decade or so. And as I show in the book I have spent a lot of time in Gaza as a reporter in the last 15 or so years that there is a proliferation of testing of drones, particularly around Gaza I'm putting aside what's happened since October 7 although it's happening since then too. But in the last 15 years where huge amounts of drones are being tested above Gaza, some armed some not used in the various Israeli invasions, incursions whatever you want to call it in Gaza.
And then those drones are then called battle tested as you say and then they're sold to huge amounts of nations around the world and the part that kind of maybe shocked me the most in fact was the use by the EU. Now the EU is buying Israeli drones they're unarmed. And there's you know, your listeners will be aware, in the last 10 or so years has been a huge influx of migrants coming from Africa and Middle East. They, after 2015, when the Europeans said they didn't want to repeat that huge influx of people coming, of course, if you're Ukrainian and white, they welcome you in and I have no problem with Ukrainians being welcomed in. But clearly if you're black or brown, it's not going to be the same.
So is the EU created this kind of fortress Europe and Israeli drones are part of that so from text which is the European sort of border force users Israeli drones 24 seven in the Mediterranean circling the Mediterranean, sending back images real time images to front tape which is based in Warsaw and Poland, but what's happening and the EU has made a clear decision to let people drown. That is obvious. They belly issue rescue boats they criminalize people who are trying to rescue migrants. So Israeli drones are a key part of that infrastructure, and I in the sky essentially and Israeli drones have a P as you say in India and various other countries and now in the last years.
And that remains one of the key drone makers of the world and indeed increasing is Turkey Turkey makes a cheaper version of what Israel has been developing and therefore Turkish drones and now also appearing in many nations around the world and many conflicts.
Chris Hedges: Let's talk about who Israel sells to it's easier to tick off the list of who they don't sell to. I covered the conflicts in Guatemala and El Salvador in the 1980s Israel was supplying weapons, including napalm to the Salvadorans and the Guatemalans.
Anthony Loewenstein: They were of course one of the most fervent supporters of the apartheid regime in South Africa they work with Pinochet's chili. They were Rwandan genocide was perpetrated with Israeli weapons. There really is they will just provide military equipment to the most heinous regimes, including the latest ethnic cleansing in the Ghana caribat.
Chris Hedges: Except for I think you mentioned three countries Iran, North Korea, and I don't know who the other one I think I say Syria.
Anthony Loewenstein: Well I mean, as far as we're aware as far as we're aware I mean of course interesting tonight though of course before 1979. And the Islamic revolution. Israel and Iran were incredibly close. I mean the fact that your arm was run by dictator was no impediment of course to selling weapons and in fact they were really worried that the rise of the Islamic revolution would impede their sales was clearly the world's biggest arms dealer 45% 45% of the world's arms comes from America. So they are leaders by far. And as you say Israel's 10th.
One of the things that kind of shouldn't have shocked me but I guess did was Myanmar in the last years obviously has been committing a genocide against this Rohingya population may have been killed me to be kicked out into Bangladesh. Even after the UN found that Myanmar was committing genocide Israel was still selling surveillance and weapons to the Myanmar regime. And I would say it's hard to list. There's so many of them. I think it's also worth saying that India and India is actually a really big focus of the book, because India is now the world's biggest country population wise the world's biggest self described democracy question that a key ally of the US and certainly my country Australia and most Western nations because it's not China India is building a Hindu fundamental estate under Modi proudly chauvinist nation where [...] Muslims are discriminated against openly there's against Muslims. Now India and Israel didn't really have a great relationship before Modi came in there was a relationship in decades past Modi comes in in 2014 as Prime Minister. And there's a love affair between Netanyahu and Modi there's this image that some viewers may have seen of the two of them kind of stepping into the beach getting their feet wet talking about how much they love each other who knows is that no audio was recorded.
This relationship is central I think to in some ways actually why I wrote the book that there is a growing global ethno-nationalist search India being the most obvious example of nations that proudly discriminate against non-majority population so in India it's against Hindus against Muslims in Israel of course it's Jews against anyone is not Jewish and I say this to someone is Jewish myself that the whole alliance between Israel and India reminds me very much as I say in the book, of Israel and South Africa nations that proudly discriminate against non so-called sensible populations and therefore inspiring others Israel has become the inspiration to so many countries and far right and right around the world putting aside liberal Zionists to over the years have had a love for Israel and putting them aside for a minute I'm talking about nations India hungry various other nations not just selling weapons but selling the idea of getting away with it that's something I talk about a lot in the book that the is the idea that Israel is able to get away with it each being occupation endless colonization brutalizing Palestinian selling weapons to God knows who and God knows where I think really goes to the heart of why I think Israel is, to me, is a danger not just to Palestinians which is bad enough but a model in I say finally Chris in the book that you often go to far right rallies and I go there for work just to be clear
that there's no purpose is in the US Australia and elsewhere the Israeli flag is a constant presence it's not unusual and these are not groups that traditionally like Jews I mean they don't I quote in the book Richard Spencer that the hideous alt right leader in America I'm a white Zionist he doesn't like Jewish people but he loves the idea of creating for him and many like him a Christian ethno national estate you've written a lot really incredibly important work on Christian theocracy in the US and its potential and rise and domination Israel is a touchpoint as you would well know for many of these groups not all but many and it's not because all these groups like Jews many of them do not but they like what Israel is doing to Palestinians to unbelievably dominate and control them and they're proudly a Jewish chauvinist they're Jewish supremacist that's what they want to create for Christians in America or for example Hindus in India and that to me is the danger.
This is from your book according to net and Yahoo Jewish writer Peter Bynard explained quote the future belong not to liberalism as Obama to find it tolerance equal rights and the rule of law but to authoritarian capitalism
governments that combined aggressive and often racist nationalism with economic and technological might the future net and Yahoo implied would produce leaders who resembled not Obama but him.
I think it fits in with what you said and unfortunately I fear I don't know what you think that he's right.
I feel that too because it's worth saying that Obama wasn't exactly a big no he wasn't democracy human rights either but putting that issue aside.
I think I feel that that is correct and it's a Yahoo I suspect as a leader possibly hasn't got a long life left as leader of Israel which obviously unclear because so many is really even many supported him.
Understandably incredibly angry with him after what happened on October 7 so he may not last long as a leader himself.
I think his general analysis I fear is correct absolutely that there is this sense of country after country after country becoming in never not just with technological repression either from Israel or the US or others.
But this idea somehow that you can maintain that domination forever now obviously October 7 as I sort of touch on the book or imply.
The idea for October 7 is arguably a delusion that if you believe as a nation that you can repress people through tech forever.
It's a lie that will not work and from Gaza is a key example that even though Gaza was the key laboratory of Israel.
They spend billions and billions in building walls and drones and surveillance.
And it's a little too much to do so. But I fear the lesson will not be learnt.
And Gideon Levy who's a good friend of mine the amazing Israeli journalist in Israel has said that he fears that even now the lessons are not being learnt by Israel and other leaders and what he means by that is that the lesson that Israel is taking from October 7 and frankly the US took from 911
was that we need to invade and bomb and dominate even more, which I think is born out of insecurity not strength.
But nonetheless that's our fear the lesson that Israel is taking not so much that we need to maybe talk to Palestinians or negotiate with Palestinians.
Those those Israelis some are saying that but it's a tiny minority.
And you can explain what happened. They destroyed the Tamil Tigers.
And the Israelis were full partners in that project. And that fascinated me because I wondered if that wasn't the playbook for Gaza.
And that's exactly a bit of background 2009 was the end of the Sri Lankan Civil War to be going for decades between the majority.
Singalese population and the Tamil Tigers who are I guess resistance movement for more Tamil rights and a Tamil homeland in Sri Lanka for years actually Israel had been supporting the Sri Lankan government in selling planes, fighter jets and other forms of technology
and weapons. 2009 happens and as some viewers will remember the Sri Lankan government was able to target the Tamils in a smaller and smaller and smaller part of the northern part of Sri Lanka.
Probably 40,000 Tamils were killed we really don't know the exact number there's never been any real accountability for that.
But I want to look at what's happening in Gaza and I have thought about Sri Lanka since October seven because in some ways the Israeli plan and I don't think there's one united plan there is to some degree a discussion although within very narrow bounds within the Israeli political
military establishment but I think the plan seems to be Northern Gaza is obliterated there is it's apocalyptic.
But soon if the plan is to decimate the southern part of Gaza and I have as I'm sure you do Chris Palestinian friends in Gaza who are sheltering in refugee camps in their own country now in the southern part of Gaza really struggling their homes have been destroyed
in the connection to Hamas I mean these are civilians living in Gaza. If essentially Gaza's infrastructure is completely obliterated that leaves only really a handful of options permanent 10 cities in Gaza, or which of course, as some
people are really well aware the dream of many on the Israeli political elite and also let's be clear many in the Israeli public based on public opinion polls kicking the Palestinians out.
Egypt Jordan Lebanon though so far, Egypt despite being a dictatorship has not acquiesced to that they have not opened the borders enough to allow it really that many Palestinians into into Sinai.
So the change I mean the Egyptian economies on its knees will they accept lots of money and bribes I very much hope not but we don't know.
But I do fear the plan as you saying Gaza is not dissimilar so what Sri Lanka did in in the northern part of that country and the outcome means Sri Lanka's finally has been that the war is kind of over.
And it still regarded a second class citizens in their own country. Let's talk about the Alpha gun girls, so a little side late but something just disgusting didn't know existed to you wrote it I read it.
Well, there is a side industry I guess you could call it of Israeli women Jewish women who are often they've been in the military they kind of have fetishized or sexualized the Israeli military so you have these groups of women who are scantily clad often holding guns often posing in photo shoots as if they're
kind of in war in Gaza or somewhere else as an idea and a way to show two things. One, the IDF is female friendly you can be a incredibly sexy woman and still be in the IDF and kill Palestinians that's the implication.
And secondly that Israeli women are cool I mean that's the message they're trying to send I don't know if it's particularly effective but that's the message they're trying to send.
And for years you know I've been following this story that there's been a real push by the IDF Israeli army to show how gender friendly they are how in fact gay friendly they are.
How trans friendly they are by how vegan friendly they are I mean this is sort of we sort of laugh in a way by saying this but I have a big section of the book talking about this is such a key part of Israeli messaging so called husband I'm not entirely convinced it's massively successful
and argue that either way, but a lot of Israel's social media in the last 10 or so years has focused on this issue. We give vegan meals to soldiers who want it we are trans friendly we are women friendly we are gay friendly you can you know wave the rainbow flag
and some viewers will see about two weeks after the Israeli invasion of Gaza there was this Israeli soldier in Gaza the background was apocalyptic holding the rainbow flag.
A cent in this image kind of in viral I did a story about essentially saying and the message was very clear. You see we want to liberate Palestinians in Gaza who are gay to just be themselves.
Now the mocking that this got justifiably was clear as if people were saying right so you've decimated Gaza and it's apocalyptic but gee you can be a gay Palestinian and some may have freedom in Gaza I mean the cognitive dissonance to actually believe that
these girls are talking about this finally that these women over the last years are traveling around Israel and the world promoting an image of Israel as liberal but also militaristic pro feminist but also gun friendly and that's why a lot of pro gun
groups in the US and mostly men let's be honest are into these kinds of sexualization of Israeli gun wielding women.
We should note that one of the uses of Pegasus or the spyware was to entrap gay Palestinian men as you read in the book and essentially turn them into informants.
Indeed, you know there's a big part of the unit 8200 which is the equivalent of the US as NSA, which in its whole race on Jeter is to monitor Palestinians 24 seven across the occupied territories but one thing they do is to try to find so
called weak spots, a man who's married to a woman who might be gay, a man who might be having an affair with a woman, in other words someone who is an inverter comers doing something unconventional. I use that term loosely.
And when they get that information they will then try to turn that person into a spy and we don't really know how many Palestinians are collaborators there's not really an act some are to tiny minority but some are in Gaza too by the way, not
often in fact, as I say in the book, because there's been a siege on Gaza for close to 20 years imposed enforced by Israel and Egypt to get out of Gaza.
Sometimes I've spoken to Palestinian who've been offered this but refused it to get out of Gaza on the Israeli side they've been told you can leave to go to study overseas or go to hospital in Israel or elsewhere.
And that's why for us, for Israel. And that's how they blackmail people because they gather information from this sort of 24 seven global surveillance network and it's interesting is finally that when October seven shows that not just these Rayleigh
intelligence failed it was sort of an arrogance and a hubris, but also the American intelligence failed it's interesting to note, since speaking to various sources I have and some, there's been some decent reporting in the last six weeks that the US apparently
has been basically, although it's spying on Israel a lot I talked in the book that there's apparently about three to 400 NSA employees in the US who's every day job is to spy on Israel.
That's the job. So they're an ally but also America doesn't entirely trust them and I'm sure that works both ways. But America was not particularly inverted comm was helping Israel to detect so-called terrorist threats and one thing I just wanted to add is finally
if I could that I'm the co editor and co founder of a group called declassified Australia which is a news gathering organization with a story a few weeks ago that showed that pine gap, which is a key US intelligence gathering center in the center of my country Australia,
which is used as a key intelligence gathering venue to use the US used in Iraq and Afghanistan to target so called terrorists but kill huge amounts of civilians is being used by the US since October seven to give intelligence to Israel in its so-called
targeting of Hamas. Now the reason that's relevant apart from the fact that you have a massive US intelligence base in the center of Australia which is being expanded in the frankly crazy US expansion in my part of the world so apparently
the US target China and Australia sadly is a key ally in that madness to have a US and Australian spy base in the center of Australia being used to funnel information to Israel, how they use that information of course is not entirely clear makes legal culpability
very clear on the US side and the Australian side as it was when the US was targeting so called terrorists in Iraq Afghanistan and Syria or elsewhere say so call because huge amounts of civilians would kill like that kind of global US intelligence
infrastructure is being used as is the F 35 a finally fine F 35 a is the as a weapon that Israel is using over Gaza, the global supply chain involves many countries.
And in the United States, the US is being modified Australia, we also had a story showing that a key part of when the bomb when the door is being opened at the bottom of the F 35 to drop weapons on Gaza that part is made here in Melbourne, Australia.
And the global supply chain of companies that are directly complicit in what Israel is doing which seems like at the ICC is listening. Hello, there's a lot to be done. Let's talk about privatization. You talk about the neoliberalism that transformed Israel which was a socialist
state. Major state owned enterprises were sold off a privatized, especially in the 1990s. Israel has very high income inequality poverty rate 23% in Israel 36% for the Arab population.
And right many Palestinians are unaware at how the occupation has been privatized because it makes no difference. It was state officer or private individual harasses or humiliates them. You go on to write many checkpoints through which Palestinians are forced to travel to access their
places or Israel if they are fortunate enough to get one of the few work permits handed out by the Jewish state use facial recognition technology and biometric details to document their every move. But these are private companies.
So explain that. What's happened to how essentially private or profit firms are managing the occupation.
It's worth saying obviously that Israel was a self described socialist country but socialist country for Jews. And that's all. Yes. Yes. Yes. And also, yes. And clearly, I mean as some older you know viewers will be aware you know the it's amazing to think now that so much of the global left was
enamored with Israel for the first really 20 years of its existence anyway that was a bit of blindness that we can talk about some other time but anyway. Yeah look Netanyahu was a key factor in this that yes Israel had a quasi socialist background.
In the last 20 or so years there's been a shift not just near liberal policies within Israel itself but also outsourced in the occupation. And in some ways it sort of goes along with the massive expansion of settlements you now have roughly three
million Jewish settlers living in occupied territory the West Bank and East Jerusalem and a lot of the guards or security officers that are working on both settler checkpoints but also Israeli checkpoints are run by private companies and
I spent a lived in East Jerusalem between 2016 and 2020 and been visiting there for close to 20 years so I spent a lot of time looking into these kinds of issues and it's worth saying that as I say in the book. Yes, it's been outsourced and the accountability was zero even if an Israeli soldier commits
an abuse let alone if a private interest does. And it's important also to say that yes a lot of his companies have Israeli but many of them in fact that are doing this are also foreign and international.
And that's relevant because some viewers remember the last years the UN had tried for years to release this list of global companies and Israeli companies that were directly complicit in the occupation and therefore they should be boycotted essentially.
They released a list a number of years ago it caused a big scandal and some circles.
About 20 or so those companies then removed themselves from being involved in managing the occupation so to speak, but there are still I think around 100 companies Israeli and foreign, but are directly involved day to day in so called managing the occupation.
That to me is is not just illegal any moral but also right for a kind of boycott campaign which I suspect will increase in the coming years after what we've seen the last six weeks.
Can you talk about any vision I think it's changed its name to.
And then unit.
Any vision which is that has changed its name is a facial recognition company and Israeli company that was testing this at Israeli checkpoints.
So what that means is that when Palestinians want to say move around the West Bank if they want to potentially go from the West Bank into Israel proper.
They have to have their details checked their irises often checked now and they were gathering all this information. We don't exactly know where that information was going but clearly it was going into Israel.
A massive database that they were using to gather personal data on pretty much every single Palestinian the occupied territories.
Those tools are then marketed globally they have appeared in huge amounts of infrastructure from airports to other places around the world. And when those companies promoted, whether any vision uses the term battle tested I'm not sure but they are saying it's
not a good thing to say that they're not interested in Palestine successfully. So called successfully. And that does tie into 8200 which is, as I said, Israel's NSA it is the body that is gathering intelligence on Israeli and on Palestinians and increasingly I should say,
the evidence that increasingly the occupation is coming home that a lot of Israeli Jews who for years believe that this was just happening to Palestinians down the road are increasingly being surveilled themselves and I'm not just talking about since October
seven although particularly since then that there is a move within Israel increasingly a criminalizing descent entirely whether it's by Arabs or Jews.
But unit 8200 has become this kind of quite infamous funnel of people who work in the military for years developing all these tools and methods to surveil Palestinians, which they then take to the private sector to develop various forms of repression which
can then sell around the world and by maintaining those close ties. That's how goes to my point earlier on the NSO group was essentially an arm of the state. Many of these companies these surveillance companies repressive tools biometric companies operating in the
military by territories or in Gaza are then used by Israel as a key selling point to make new friends, so to speak it's a transactional friendship transactional relationship. And it's why as I really think I think it's more and more that the Israeli
industry really is it is an insurance policy. It's an insurance policy because yes there's some countries that oppose what Israel's doing not many not enough. But even the countries that publicly do oppose what Israel is doing many of them are still buying Israeli
and oppressive technology. I mean Mexico is one example amongst many. So often I think words matter. Sure. What a government or you know Prime Minister President says it's not irrelevant. Yeah sure. But what matters more is what you're doing what you're buying what you're
doing to yourself in your own country. So when you have 130 140 nations in the world that have bought some form in the last decades of Israeli defense technology drones missiles spyware whatever it may be. That's what matters and I think those Israel believes probably
with justification. Those nations at least for now are unlikely to turn on Israel while they're so reliant on those tools of repression. Let's talk about blue wolf or the wolf packed out of a base. So this is basically a system that has been developed in the last five or so years that every Israeli soldier operating in the occupied territories has
been used to be a base. The aim is to get personal information and data on every single Palestinian man, woman and child it's entered into a massive database.
And that is then used to potentially discriminate against those people. What does that mean practically.
Person X wants to go from the West Bank to Israel to work to get medical care.
But no, what information has been collected on them is obviously no consent. And as I say in the book there's testimony given by soldiers, usually anonymously Israeli soldiers.
Where it's almost like a game. How many Palestinian personal details can we get on our mission tonight when we're serving in the occupied territories.
It sort of goes without saying, but there is no transparency in this process zero. So Palestinian living in Hebron or Nablus or somewhere else.
Don't really know what information is being gathered, but we do know that it's impacting their freedom of movement from place to place within the West Bank.
And also potentially further a fill into Israel overseas.
Israel innovates all sorts of forms of crowd control you right. See of tears a drone that dropped tear gas canisters over a broad area skunk water.
The skunk water drone, a form of liquid emitted from a water cannon that left a foul smell on clothes and body for a long time and these are you they were used on a great march of return, which was a non violent largely nonviolent protest.
Movement in Gaza, where they went up to the border many of them, of course, were shot but talk about some of the forms of crowd control that have been pioneered by Israel but that we have seen in places like Ferguson.
Yeah, well this is something I talk about in the book right Chris that there is a sense that, again Israel is using the West Bank particularly Jerusalem and Gaza as a testing ground so some of those examples them explain what they briefly are so the
very much a return as he said was Palestinian's trying to march for their freedom and for the right to return essentially to Israel to where they ancestors used to live.
But it certainly caused huge damage and literally while the march of return was happening and while that drone that the sea of tears is being used I document this in the book.
Other countries were wanting to buy it because it was being tested so to speak in real time.
The connection between the US and Israel is key here and I say this pretty much soon after 911 there was a massive attempt by both the American Israeli.
Firstly, the pro Israel lobby in the US the anti defamation league particularly but other groups as well, to have sort of information sharing so huge amounts of police forces went between Israel and the US and vice versa training so to speak in tools of
so called people management, their examples of police officers that have these quotes in the book going to Israel after 911 being inspired by what Israel is doing to Palestinians and they bring those I mean let's be clear so saying the book American police don't need
training to be repressive against blacks and minorities obviously I'm not arguing that but what I am saying that is that they are getting new tools of repression to the point where just quite recently you had major Israeli border security
individuals on the US Mexico border looking at how the US inverted commas maintains its border and it's worth saying you mentioned this before I didn't fully give an answer to that that on the US Mexico border.
There is a key part of that infrastructure which was started by a barber deepened by Trump and continued by Biden now of Israeli surveillance there's massive elbot surveillance towers all across the US Mexico border.
And elbot is Israel's biggest defense company and the reason the US initially was interested in this kind of technology was because it had been tested and tried in Palestine inverted commas it works.
So you have all these massive surveillance towers which the aim is to both surveil potential migrants crossing the border but also importantly Native Americans who lived on their ancestral territory and I have quotes in the book of saying they can't live securely in their own
territory because of these surveillance towers. So again it's this and I have, you know it's worth saying that there is this ideological alignment between many in the US who view Israel as almost on the front line.
And they turn the Wild West of crowd control crowd management crushing any kind of resistance to overwhelming force, and they take those examples back to the US and vice versa it's like a feedback loop, it goes both ways.
As you say, in Ferguson I touch on this in the book that there was a lot of evidence that some we don't know exactly that particularly police in Ferguson and directly gone to Israel that's not necessarily the case, but some of the training that police forces in the US had
been used including in Ferguson had partly come from Israel. Talk about font X and how this Israeli technology is used to break into encrypted messaging apps, especially on refugee mobile phones.
Yeah, fun takes is the EU's border so called security force and there was a real trauma inside front text, not that I feel sorry for them but trauma after the 2015 refugee surge mostly from Syria and elsewhere.
And again, so now you have a situation where huge amounts of migrants are still trying to come from mostly Africa in the Middle East, escaping wars or conflicts or climate crisis disasters, and their phones which are this smartphones are essentially
a vital way of knowing where how to get there, you know people have maps on their phone personal details photos are often taken from people at EU border crossings.
Information is taken off them. We don't know exactly what information is taken off but presumably my my sense and to my reporting is that probably contacts in European nations and attempt to try to break up what they would call people
networks but I would say humanitarian paths to a better life.
And Israeli technology is part of that and I think it's important to say that as I said before, there's Israeli drones that are part of that infrastructure as well but also the EU which is Israel's biggest trading partner.
So when you have all these European nations in the last years expressing now and then concern about the occupation concern about settlements just this week, just this week.
One of the heads the EU said and I'm paraphrasing in time of war it's just outrageous that Israel would spend huge amounts of money on building more settlements because the Israel's release its latest budget and this huge amounts of money for settlements and I responded on Twitter.
What are you going to do about it because history suggests nothing.
They'll do nothing about I mean, apart from the fact that I'm a German citizen and an Australian citizen obviously in Germany.
This issue is toxic that Germany is using its own.
The political calamity disgusting actions during the Holocaust, including most of my family were killed in the Holocaust using that to support Israel's historical absolution to somehow say that to be madly pro Israel is to atone for our own sins during the 12 years of Nazi Germany.
And that has a practical impact because Israel is not just selling what's the weapons to Germany Germany is also selling huge amounts of technology to Israel.
Since October 7, there's been a 10 fold increase in weapons that Germany is selling to Israel to assist in its horrific war in Gaza. This is what it practically means that EU support for Israel.
I have a quote in the book there was a Gideon Levy the journalist I mentioned before from Haritz went to a sort of meeting with Netanyahu a number of years ago and he looks at a mat Netanyahu and says the whole world's basically in support of Israel.
There's a few nations in Europe I think you pointed to Belgium that it kind of give us a bit of trouble but overall we're fine, meaning that yes occasionally the Belgian authorities express concern about settlements, which is what doesn't really care about.
But ultimately the EU has made a decision that they will not challenge Israel even though he infrastructure Chris is being destroyed in the West Bank constantly.
And I wonder how and when that will change because it hasn't changed yet.
I want to close your last chapter you quote an Israeli human rights lawyer because of surveillance tech a country can avoid massacring protesters now today we're able to identify and stop surveillance of the next Nelson Mandela before he even knows he's Nelson Mandela
But you describe in the book is the formation of a really frightening dystopian or well in world that extends far beyond Israeli borders, but that of course Israel is integral to creating.
I certainly don't suggest that Israel's not able to commit massacres and obviously we've seen that since October 7 I guess what they quote that was some e time Mac who is a really great Israeli human rights lawyers for a lot of time trying to uncover the Israeli
history so and a lot of his work is in my book, essentially what he's saying and the book also shows this is that the technology of surveillance is so sophisticated now that nations and I have quotes from people in togo for example
various other nations across the globe that are run by often us back to his really back to taterships that back in the so called bad old days obviously there are repressive regimes that were able to surveil people through various forms of course that's existed forever
But the difference now is that we are so frankly overly reliant on phones and the internet, but all this technology is monitored 24 seven doesn't mean every information is always captured I mean the US issue up 911 right was they were getting so much information that couldn't process it
was a problem as we saw on October 7 but as you say, Israel to me is becoming and really has been for years, one of the global inspirations for repressive tech long before 911 and long after 911 and the danger of that is is clear is that it becomes a model for repression
as I said Israel shows countries how to do it, you can also repress your people if you buy this technology this by where this drone whatever it may be, yes the technology is not perfect that of course don't say that but that's what I'm saying, but it can create a global
almost architecture of control that is close to unbeatable and the impact of that at a time where democracies frankly in decline I mean you could argue that even so called self described democracy is undemocracies anyway, but nations that claim to be democratic are increasingly
moving I would say more and more to an Israeli style model I'm not just talking about an occupation, particularly I'm talking about language I was also talking about surveillance as I say in the book, the whole US rhetoric after 911 the so called war on terror
and I'm talking about these really playbook wasn't exactly the same, but it was remarkably inspired by what Israel had been doing in Lebanon in the 80s and onwards, hugely similar similar rhetoric about so called terrorism collateral murder
collateral damage but I would call collateral murder, something that our mutual friend Julian Assange something you know a fellow Australian a great huge hero of mine I've known Julian since 2006 right at the beginning of WikiLeaks that but people like him and many others have been saying for years
this is the threat, the idea of a complete architecture of global surveillance which is close to unbeatable and Israel is a global leader in that, and I think alerting people to that is the first step the next step is obviously how to challenge that
and I think a lot of the global response to October seven, both the attack by Hamas but also the insane overwhelming brutal war crimes that Israel is committing in Gaza I think is bringing out a sort of civil society action that I have not seen on this issue
in my lifetime, and I Palestinian Israeli friends and I'm talking about mostly globally not so much in Palestine Israel itself, and that to me is a sign of hope including fellow Jews and many Palestinians and that to me is that is the only sort of sliver of hope in what is a really really
great, that was Anthony Lowenstein author of the Palestine laboratory, how Israel exports the technology of occupation around the world, I want to thank the Real News Network and its production team, Cameron Granadino, Adam Coley, David Hebden and Kayla Rivera, you can find me at Chris Edges.substack.com